Wednesday, May 12, 2010

Why are we still talking about mainspecc loot?

As Larissa of the Pinkpigtaillinn has explained to me: Starting your posts with a question mark, is the best way to write a post. So I will try and do? that? more? Im not sure I understand the concept.

Todays topic was brought on by a comment over at the "morally upright round things" (some weirdos refer to it as the "righteous orbs".) Where Tam talks about this Godawful evul selfish holy-paladin, that gets forced to play ret once in a while, and then has the nerves to roll on a dps axe, when the Death Knight tank rolled on it also!

Well, thank GOD, that the paladin -dispite of winning the roll- didn't have the moral codex of a flying squirrel, to keep it, but traded it to the rightfull owner. The tanking Death Knight.
So it was a story that ended well for everyone involved. The tank got his big axe, and the paladin learned a valuable lesson in knowing her place.

I guess the story should have ended there, if it was not for one priest in need of discipline (did you know that disciplinning priests are the most used two word combo in blog-titles anywhere? only second after the "hot" and "dot" combo.) Who made a comment that sparkled my post for today.
I roll a healing/healing spec myself, but my guess would be that hybrids didn't like the idea of announcing their MS at the beginning of the raid because (1) the want to hedge their bets, as you said, and (2) they don't want to come off as greedy jerks right at the start of every raid (I like to hide my greedy jerkitude until at least the first boss is down, personally). 
 I, phew, so many things in that qouote made me stop and think. First off, why are people with multiple speccs slimy evul creatures who's only goal is to horde as much loot for themselves? Oh wait, no they are not.

If you have ever played the "3rd healer" in a 10 manned, you will know that having equally good dps and healing gear, is what will save your raid wipes, and frustration. 
so why does people hate on players that save the raid and helps progress? Why do so many players think it is a bad idea that the paladin who switches from ret to holy in a heartbeat, gets to roll equally with healers on healing gear, and the melee on melee gear?
Could it be loot jealousy?
As I posted myself on Tams blog, the answer is DKP. In my guild we have 1 loot rule (well, many, but one above the others)
DKP decides, who gets the loot
The only exception for this rule is on Orange gear, but that is because it takes a guild-effort to get those staffs and axes. And so that is awarded to dedicated loyal players (who then get a DKP cut).

I'll take myself as an example (this is obviously also why I am so pissed at single-specc lootwhores) in my 10 manned raid I tank. I have spend all my dkp to make sure I can tank the best I possibly can. At the moment My tank gear is awsome. Apart from 1 neck piece, i am very happy with every single piece of gear I own. because when we raid in 10s I often tank.
When I backup in 25 I dps. I dps somewhere above the tanks,  around the mark of the expose armor sluts rogues. Way below all the other dps. Because I have focused my gear on tanking. Ive saved up my dkp and my frost emblems to get me as good a tanking set as possible.
So I am never a benefit for my raid-group when I dps, because I am a tier and a half behind everyone else.

You can't get dps gear, you are a tank
So I sign up for VoA, I do not need anything from VoA.. Tankwise. And this is VoA 25 we are talking about. And I do not need a single item. That is pretty good for a 10 manned raider.
And yet, I have to queue up as dps, in order to be allowed to get dps. And Im looking at a 45k DK in half n half gear, saying he will MT.
How is me pretending to be a dps only helping anyone there?
Luckily the raid-leader is a guildie of mine, so I ask if I should tank. "please" is the response. and so I have to make a big deal out of
"yes, I will tank for you, but I am here as dps, so I will be rolling on dps gear only"

I realise in a PuG raid people will roll need on any loot that isn't red.
If the hat ain't red, it belongs on your head
But in a guild? Why would you want to hold your guild back in terms of progress over loot? denying your socalled "offspeccs" decent gear, will hold you back on progress.
Within reaon of course. When you see someone who bids on gear that would make a huge difference to them, you let em win, but if its a toss up, you roll for it. For the betterment of the entire guilds progress.

Did it hurt me when I lost the bid for lord marrowgaws axe, for the second time in two weeks?
It did, but I did not have the dkp for it, and the upgrade was huge for me, but not that huge, and I did. not. have. the. dkp.

Tam; no this whole post is not aimed at your guilds practices, yes, i misread your post on purpose, and yes I do know that this is not the way things went down, and the DK needed the axe more, and the paladin wasnt forced to do anything. That post was just a catalyst for something thats bugged me for a long time.


  1. Errr, yeah, thanks for the creative reading there ;)

    I think it comes down, err, fair competition if that makes sense. I mean if you lose your axe to a dude you know is going to be use it 100% on the time on raids then you feel that your loss was worth it. If you lose your axe to someone who will be using it less than 50% of the time when you should be using it 100% of the time, you feel it was borderline wasted.

    At least my theory - and I know it's not "right" to feel that way.

    The point is that there should definitely be some way to provide a fair way of getting loot for hybrids that does not also leave the single-specers feeling cheated.

  2. You are mocking me! It wasn't I who brought up this thing with question marks in titles. It was Kriz. But yeah, somehow I've got it on my mind.

    On topic: I had never seen a DKP system at work before I entered my current guild. It seemed a bit scary to begin with, but the longer I've lived with it, the more have I become to love it. Rolling for stuff or - worse - having loot councils - will ever so easily end up in drama and disappointment. DKP feels simple, pure, solid in comparsion. About the philosophy of main specs vs off specs we apply a simple rule: MS > OS. If there isn't any MS bidding on it, OS can roll for it. They won't have to pay any DKP for it though since they as you say are making the guild a service providing some flexibility.
    Orange stuff are done seperately, but actually both the cases I've seen - the staff and now the shadowmorne, were settled by DKP bids, even though it was said that only people with very high attendance were supposed to bid for it.

    DKP. It isn't the solution of all possible guild drama you can think of, but it certainly vaccinates you against a lot of the tensions that else could have appeared.

  3. @tam: my whole post was a subtle salespitch for DKP, but I think Larisa sells it much better than I could I the comment above.

    @lar: I would never mock you, I swear!! ;)
    Why do you still have MS over OS? I agree that you should be sensible over what you pick, but still why be forced to not bid on items that (all things considered) would be a huge upgrade to you, but only a minor upgrade to the other guy?

  4. Agree with you pretty close to 100%. DKP (or for pugs/non-progression raids GDKP) is the way to go. Main spec, off-spec, RP-spec, PVP-spec, who cares? If you want the item, bid more. If you don't have the DKP/G, QQ more.

    When I had a guild that did progression, we had an SK system. First crack was SK bid. You would raise eyebrows if you bid for an item for a spec you never raided with, and we disallowed real idiocy, but if you ever specced or intended to spec something in a progression raid, it was cool to bid on that spec's gear.

    If nobody bid, then there would be a free roll for people intending to use the item for off spec (meaning anything you weren't willing to use up your bid on), after that it would get sharded. I always thought you should pay a shard to make the offspec roll, but they were not goblin enough for that.

  5. I'm honestly not an expert in DKP and guild-gearing strategies. But it makes sense to me that you have to make a decision - just like you do which character is your main respectively alt. If you focus most on one spec you'll get that one really good quicker. It isn't ideal for the efficiency - I think - if people constantly jump back and forward between playing healer and for instance dps. If you specialize you become batter at it. And that's why the best gear should go to specialists willing to bid for it. On the other hand offspecs CAN be handy for a guild and that's why it's nice to give it away "for free" if noone else wants it. However this "for free" is only appliable for hybrid classes. As a mage I'm not allowed to roll for "offspecs" - I have to pay dkp for anything I want. Same goes with rogues, hunters and locks.

    But yeah... I suppose your way can work to. The point that we can agree on is that DKP saves you a ton of headaches.

  6. @gnome:
    We are :) we have a min of 1 bid, otherwise its De'd
    That is where we disagree. Some fights require 7 healers, some requires 6, some fights require 3 tanks, some 1. Those people need to put out just as much dps as anyone else, when that is what is required of them. Why should they not be equal to get that?
    in 25, our 3rd tank tanks just about half the fights... what is he then? tank or dps??

    (but yea, whichever level of dkp works, sure is a headache-stopper)

  7. I do have to point out that my quote- for it was me whom you pointed out as needing "disciplinning" - was taken out of context here. I used the above sentence to articulate that a raid comprised solely of dual specs is gearing twice as many characters.

    Your creative interpretation of the post and pursuant comments is certainly... inventive.

  8. I don't think you need disciplinning, I was just making a bit of (hopefully) lighthearted fun of your blog-name :) (feel free to return the favour, my old blog was called dwarf-death-knight, so there should be plenty of ammo)
    I was not creatively intertritating your comment, however, only Tams post. This is what I read from your comment, that the most likely reason for dualspecced players to not want to name a main-specc is the fact that they want as much of the good-guys loot as possible.
    I've reread your post, and this is still what it says to me.
    And a raid compromised purely of dual-specced does not need twice as much loot, there is just not as much loot that goes to waste.

  9. I can see how this tool (DKP) might be helpful if one is in a raiding guild of 30 to 9999 players who don't trust each other. We aren't, end of story, nothing to add, keep moving Citizen.

    Most of, if not all of our guild members do not pug, do not do 25s and have very little contact other than the occasional random/BG/RP and selling of services with non guild members. Not to sound like I am putting us on a different plateau than the rest of the WoW players but we are a bit different than your normal every day WoW player, we do not play to get fat lootz we play to play _<"together">_ because we truly appreciate each and every one of our guild members. We are few, we are selective and we like it that way.

  10. I do not think that you an I, will ever agree on this. All I can tell you is that my guild has lasted 5 years, and through those 5 years I've seen many guilds come and go in wow. None of those guilds that are still around and raiding together have had the "just roll for it" rules.
    It has nothing to do with trust, but everything to do with wanting to kill bad guys. Good players become better players with better gear.

    Also, you have read my post haven't you? It is about supporting people who are helping your guild, by having good gear in several speccs.
    I realise that to you, this might be constructed as a personal attack on the way your guild does things, It is not.
    But since you still seem to be under the impression that DKP is about lack of trust, and that people who are grown up about gaming doesn't need some tool to "think for them", like you said somewhere else. All I can say to you, huntardface, you big grown up guy you, is: Come back when you have learned your lesson, I promise I won't say "I told you so".